Difference between revisions of "Turkish Governments 9 Points"

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<h5>On this page I address a pathetic Q&A on the Turkish governments web pages. It is located on their ministry of foreign affairs web site along with other material so incorrect, that an elementary school student could find many inaccuracies.  My text will be preceded by an [RK].</h5>
<h5>On this page I address a pathetic Q
The Armenian Issue in Nine Questions and Answers
Armenian sources in foreign countries are now involved against. Turkey in an intensive defamation campaign
[RK] What internationally scattered refugee people has ever claimed such a thing ever before?  These sorts of things are not made up.
which has reached great dimensions. This malicious propaganda based on certain repeated allegations by Armenian extremists has now acquired a racist character and it is being bolstered also by certain foreign sources for different purposes. The Armenian propaganda is no more satisfied with unjust vilification of Turkey but it is now putting forward some baseless demands from Turkey and the Turkish people.
Inevitably this propaganda gave way to the creation of Armenian terrorism in the years following 1973. Thus Armenian propaganda fuelled terrorism which in return increased the propaganda. Finally, Armenian propaganda identified itself with the terrorism movements against Turkey.
Armenian terrorism has claimed a total of 133 assaults against Turkish and other targets in 41 cities in 22 different countries. In these terrorist attacks 33 Turkish diplomats and citizens and 8 foreigners have been killed and 99 Turkish diplomats and citizens as well as 89 people from other nationalities injured. With very few exceptions, almost all the Armenian terrorist attacks took place in western countries and those foreigners who were killed or injured were their citizens. Despite some differences in style, Armenian propaganda and terrorist claims can be summarized in the following nine categories:
It is being alleged,
[RK] Note what the questions are which are being asked.  Mostly irrelevant/twisted. The only relevant issue between Armenians and the Turkish government is getting the Turkish government to admit that it is responsible for the crime of genocide. These other issues are all pretty pointless even though the Armenian assertion is usually very easily proven. Trying to disprove the Armenian claims on the peripheral issues only makes the claim that no genocide occured more obviously a lie.
1.That Eastern Anatolia is the original homeland of the Armenians.
[RK] Why the word "original"?  Eastern Anatolia was the only known homeland of the people known as Armenians.  No preceding peoples exist.  So what is the point of "original"?  Also, how is this relevant to whether there was a genocide? This whole point is completely irrelevant.
2.That beginning with Seldjukis and Ottomans, Turks have seized from Armenians their territories and occupied them by force.
[RK]  This much is very clear to anyone.  This paper tried to say that because the Armenians were not a united political force at the time of conquest, that it doesn't really count as their land when the Turks took it.  Who cares who was ruling it?  Maybe it was an Armenian prince ruling, maybe it was a Greek Emperor, either way it was Armenia.  I think all historians would agree that Armenians had inhabited these lands for a couple of thousand years before the Turkic tribes (Seljuk and Ottoman) arrived and conquered the area.
3.That Turks have misruled and suppressed the Armenians throughout history.
[RK] Some may say this.  There was a bit of discrimination until the late 1800's, but for a "Master/Slave" relationship, I would say relation were not too bad until the late 1800's.
4.That Turks have begun to massacre the Armenians as of 1890's.
[RK] Certainly true.
5.That Turks have submitted the Armenians to a genocide in 1915 in a planned and systematic way.
[RK] Certainly true.
6.That Talat Pasha issued telegrammes ordering genocide.
[RK] Whether or not these exist does not change the fact that this was a genocide.
7.That the number of Armenians who lost their lives through genocide is one and a half million.
[RK] Irrelevant, but a generally quoted number.  If the number were 1% of that it would still be genocide.  If only 1 million Jews had been killed by Hitler, it would still have been genocide.
8.That the Treaty of Sevres is still in force.
[RK] No need to address this now.  Certainly Armenia never signed away Kars/Ardahan as an independent country.
9.That today Turks are still keeping Armenians under oppression.
[RK] I know Armenians who have left because of the problems.  Armenian schools must have Turkish Vice Principles, Church are being razed/converted to mosques, etc. I could dedicate an entire site to these abuses. This year the Armenian cumminity was told who it must elect as its new Christian leader. This by a "secular" Muslim government that is supposedly democratic!
[RK] So now we see just how ridiculous the questions are to begin with and from there we will continue.
These Armenian principalities existed for centuries under the control of various great empires and states, often changing sides to secure maximum advantage, and thus earning for Armenians often caustic and critical remarks from contemporary historians, as for example the Roman historian Tacitus, who in his Annalium Liber wrote:
"The Armenians change their position relating to Rome and the Persian Empire, sometimes supporting one and sometimes the other," concluding that they are "a strange people."
[RK] Nice inclusion of ancient racism.  Very tacky.  What country does not support whoever it is most beneficial to?  Look at Italy.
"It is an undeniable historic fact that the Turkish armies have never interfered in the religious and cultural affairs in the areas they conquered."
[RK] Nice section of patting themselves on the back... but I would have to charaterize genocide as "interference in religious and cultural affairs" of Armenians.
Question 5. Did the Turks Undertake a Planned and Systematic Massacre of the Armenians in 1915?
"When those of the Armenians resident in the aforementioned towns and villages who have to be moved are transferred to their places of settlement and are on the road, their comfort must be assured and their lives and property protected; after their arrival their food should be paid for out of Refugees Appropriations until they are definitively settled in their new homes. Propertly and land should be distributed to them in accordance with their previous financial situation as well as their current needs; and for those among them needing further help, the government should build houses, provide cultivators and artisans with seed, tools, and equipment." (34)
[RK] Ahh, finally something relevant to the question.  Well now, what is this telegram worth when you cannot find a single Armenian who will tell you that he/she was resettled comfortably, that his/her life and property was protected, that they were given new homes, seeds, tools? This document is actually pretty good proof of the genocide. Moving the entire Armenian population to the desert by foot alone would be genocide since the intention would be death obviously. Add to this the fact that the able bodied men were killed before the death march, and the women were stolen into harems, raped, killed on the way, children were taken killed, and at the end of the march into the desert, most of the survivors were killed anyways. This is all extremely well documented.
"Make arrangements for special officials to accompany the groups of Armenians who are being relocated, and make sure they are provided with, food and other needed things, paying the cost out of the allotments set aside for emigrants." (35)
[RK] Again, nice on paper, but that is all it was, words on paper if indeed such an order was ever printed.
Out of the some 700.000 Armenians who were transported in this way until early 1917, certainly some lives were
[RK] How many lives were "certainly lost"?  Where is this great city of Armenians that was built with government money for the Armenian refugees?
lost, as the result both of large scale military and bandit activities then going on in the areas through which they passed, as well as the general insecurity and blood feuds which some tribal forces sought to carry out as the caravans passed through their territories. In addition, the deportations and settlement of the deported Armenians took place at a time when the Empire was suffering from severe shortages of fuel, food, medicine and other supplies as well as large-scale plague and famine. It should not be forgotten that, at the same time, an entire
[RK] Hmmm, a great time to move a productive primarily agrarian people from their farms out to the desert.  This makes great sense.
Ottoman army of 90.000 men was lost in the East as a result of severe shortages, or that through the remainder of the war as many as three or four million Ottoman subjects of all religions died as a result of the same
[RK]  Hah!  What sort of a number is this???  It includes Armenians that the Turks killed, and Turks that the Australians killed, and Kurds who starved because Armenian farmers were killed by the Ottoman government! This is a joke in poor taste or an insult to your intelligence.
conditions that afflicted the deportees. How tragic and unfeeling it is, therefore, for Armenian nationalists to blame the undoubted suffering of the Armenians during the war to something more than the same anarchical conditions which afflicted all the Sultan's subjects. This is the truth behind the false claims distorting historical facts by ill-
[RK]  It was all brought on by the Sultan/Young Turks.  Not by any wrongdoing on behalf of the Armenians.
the Berlin trial of the Armenian terrorist Tehlirian, who killed Talat Pasha. Nevertheless, the court neither considered these documents as "evidence" nor was involved in any decision claiming the authenticity of them.
[RK] Tehlirian executed Talaat, just as the Turkish court had ordered after WWI.
Finally, and in the end most important, when the war came to an end, the Armenian population still was substantially in place in Western Anatolia, Thrace and Istanbul. Had the Ottoman government ordered massacres, evidently they too would have been killed. And for that matter, had the Ottoman government wanted to eliminate all the Armenians in the Empire, it could have done so, far more easily by killing and disposing of them where they lived, rather than undertaking a large-scale deportation of those in the Eastern war zones under the eyes of foreign observers.
[RK] Hey I am not going to speculate on the efficiency of the chosen method.  Certainly mudering the Armenians under the pretext of relocation was an easier diplomatic mission.  Murdering the Armenians of Constantinople under the eyes of the western Ambassadors would be an entirely different matter.
The claim, thus, that the Ottoman government ordered and carried out a general massacre of Armenians in the Empire cannot be sustained and is disproved by the facts.
[RK] How this conclusion was drawn I do not know.
Question 8. Is the Sevres Agreement Still in Force?
On 10 August 1920 the Armenians joined in signing the long-hoped-for Treaty of Sevres, which provided that the Ottoman government would recognize the establishment of an independent Armenian state, with boundaries to be determined by President Wilson. This treaty was, however, signed only by the Ottoman Government in Istanbul, while most Turks, and most of the country accepted the leadership of the Ankara government, led by Mustapha Kemal, who actively opposed the treaty and its provisions.
[RK] How convenient.  The ruling government was not liked by "most Turks", so the treaty was therefore invalid. The Armenians were subjected to genocide for allegedly not liking the Ottoman Turkish government.
After the American Congress rejected a Mandate over Anatolia, the Armenian Republic in the Caucasus, starting in June 1920, attacked Turkey, sending guerilla bands as well as organized army units into eastern Anatolia, and undertaking widespread massacres of the settled population. The Ankara government moved to the defense in
[RK] I see, the Armenian Republic, with how many people? 1 million? Attacked Turkey... how many millions?  Hmm, yes that sounds reasonable.  I would like a reliable source for this.
On 16 March, 1921 Turkey signed the Moscow Treaty with the Soviet Union, by which the boundaries between
[RK] Irelevant what Moscow says about Armenian lands.
Turkey and the Soviet Union were definitively drawn. As arranged in this agreement, on 13 October 1921 Turkey signed the Kars Agreement with Soviet Armenia, confirming the now boundaries between the two as well as their agreement that the provisions of the Treaty of Sevres were null and void once and for all.
[RK] Irrelevant what Moscow forced the Armenian puppet government to sign. Why bring this up?  If Soviet Armenian leaders had signed an agreement with the US allowing US troops, would they have the right to implement it?  No, they were puppets.
All these settlements effectively nullified Armenian ambitions for a state in eastern Anatolia. The Treaty of Lausanne, signed on 24 July 1923 in place of the Treaty of Sevres, did not even mention the Armenians, which is why Armenian nationalists even today try to resurrect The Sevres treaty which never really was put into force.
[RK] How could Lausanne refer to Armenia?  There was no Armenia left to represent itslef, and Turkey refused to sign anything containing the word Armenia.  Just like it refused to aknowlege there was such a thing as a Kurd until the 1980's.  There are of course about 10 million Kurds in Turkey.
Question 9. Are the Armenians of Turkey Being Persecuted Today?
[RK]  YES!  Their schools are required to have Turkish principals, they are not allowed to will their estates to the church, they are given a hard time signing up for Armenian school, or for refurbishing their churches, and many of the churchs are being/have been converted to mosques.  They are certainly not allowed to talk about/print anything about the genocide.
The 40,000-50,000 Armenians living in Turkey today are in no way separated from the remainder of the population. They are full Turkish citizens, with the same rights and privileges as other Turkish citizens, with their
[RK] Yeah, with the same rights as the Kurds that is.  The right to be abused.
After examining the basic allegations directed by the Armenian propaganda against Turkey following conclusions can be reached: First, it becomes clearly evident that Armenian allegations are false when compared with historical facts. Secondly, it becomes obvious how the Armenian propaganda created documents in order to support its accusations.
[RK]  All that is apparent is that the Turkish government, with all the millions it has spent, has been unable to buy a re-written history.  That the truth is too strong to overcome with this nonsense.
[RK]  Wow, now that we are through with that load of crap can we put these ridiculous non-arguements behind us?  The Turkish government obviously has nothing worthwhile to contribute, or they would not have posted such gibberish.
[[Category:Armenian Genocide]]

Revision as of 05:21, 12 April 2007

My Response To Turkish Govt. Propoganda

On this page I address a pathetic Q