Talk:A long open letter to Turks
- Hi, let me address your note in sections, since there is a lot in there.
I patiently read all your ideas regarding the Armenian Genocide, here are some things I want to ask and tell you about
- Thanks for reading it. Having read your entire response though, I wonder how carefully you've read it. You continue to write "claiming Armenian Genocide" at times. But, the guy who invented the word genocide used it, so did the UN in 1948 when it defined Genocide, so do the Genocide scholars, and even the Turkish government when nobody is looking. We are not "claiming" anything, we are simply telling the truth.
As a Turk, I have been told stories about Armenians and all that stuff and I have also been told how ideas and facts differ. I know enough about history and politics, I have idea about psychology and sociology and I have ideas about current issues in the world.
First, as an Armenian I need to ask you, a couple of years ago when France made its attack upon Turkey by caliming Armenian genocide (ignoring North Africa), Tayyip Erdogan said, let the historians discuss that, and there was going to be a conference (as I remember it was going to be in Greece) but Armenian historians didn't show up to share their "based on reality" sources. Have you heared about the conference and the reason why they didnt show up?
- Why are you asking me about a conference that may or may not have happened? I have not heard of it, but what does a conference a couple of years ago have to do with whether the Armenian Genocide happened? Let me tell you something about your government and how it operates, it spends MILLIONS of dollars and tries ANYTHING to keep the genocide issue from being discussed and recognizes (much of what it does, by its very nature of trying to stifle the truth backfires and gets more publicity). One of the tactics it uses, and you will see this very obviously in the past months when the Armenian Genocide bill was before the US congress, is to try and tell the world that if they recognize the genocide it stifles discussion on the topic in Turkey, or that it interferes with their discussions with the Armenians. They are trying to use and abuse the idea of conferences and discussions with Armenians in order to actually stifle any real discussion. Armenians have seen this for at least 10 years now, and are sick of it. The Turkish government is clearly not interested in discussion or talk, or they'd allow it in Turkey itself. The secondary issue, is that the whole world, as my letter shows, knows that there was a genocide. It is NOT a conspiracy, it is simply true and known. So asking Armenians to sit with the denialist Turkish government, is like asking Jews to sit with Neo-Nazis or the president of Iran and discuss whether or not the Holocaust actually happened. No thanks!
Secondly, you always talk about Turkey's secret plans of removing Armenians and that they had an opportunity to make it real. Can you prove this? Can you really show evidence from real sources, not from phrases?
- Again, this is in my opinion a good theory, with some solid backing, but what you have to understand is that it is TOTALLY irrelevant as to whether there was a genocide or not. It is not even worth discussing. It is like discussing whether Hitler's beliefs that Jews really had a conspiracy to take over the banking world was true or not when he decided to kill all the Jews. Who cares? Irrelevant!
It's really easy to direct realities to become false when you dont have evidence. You might think of anything and theoretically prove it, but in this case if we are still talking about it after decades, you need to support your ideas.
- "We" are not still talking about whether it happened - only Turkey is. And the avalanche of evidence is so overwhelming you'd be amazed if you actually started to read it. Do you live in Turkey? Have you been exposed to Dadrian, Hovanissian, Miller, Powers, Balakian? You should be.
The research doesnt finish up by internet if you are talking about history. Internet wasnt used in those days. How many books have you read about 1914-1918? Have you ever read books from a Turkish point of view in order to understand what you are opposing to??
- I have read almost everything written on the subject, including the Turkish GOVERNMENT point of view, yes. From Myth of Terror, to your ministry of culture website. It's all laughable, except that the subject is so horrid.
Turks and Armenians lived for centuries on those lands, when Ottoman Empire was still alive. Why dont you talk about those years when you had as much prestige, money, opportunity as Turks? Why dont you underline the fact that Ottoman Empire never left you hungry, thirsty or insecure?
- Ummm, why don't Jews talk about how great Germany was before the holocaust? Do you seriously expect us to talk about how wonderful things were when Armenians weren't being systematically exterminated? But rather to talk about the good old days when Christians had to pay more taxes, couldn't defend themselves against Muslims in court, and had their daughters regularly kidnapped and forced into marriage? Please.
Why dont you talk about the alliance between Armenians and Russians in the eastern Turkey and the fact that Armenians fought against us? The fact that Turkey still postponed to be in war with you and rather than fighting with you, they wanted you to move to south?
- Now it is obvious you have not read my letter - or choose to ignore it. Why are you asking me questions if you are not interested in what I have to say? What some Armenians did with Russians is irrelevant, and so is the second class citizen status Armenians had in the Ottoman Empire. By and large Armenians were loyal to the Ottoman Empire, that is irrelevant too. What IS relevant is that the Ottoman Empire decided that ALL THE ARMENIANS MUST DIE. You see, you ask me for evidence for MANY things, I will ask you evidence of only one thing: Show me ONE document concerning the relocation of Armenians to "the south". Just one, which shows that Armenian families will be moved, that they will be fed, housed, protected. Show ONE document that shows that ONE lira was spent to feed ONE Armenian child during these deportations to "the south", also known as the Der Zor DESERT. Yes, desert. Where were the men on these deportations? There were zero men, they were all dead already - murdered by their government. Oh, you say there was not budget for food? Well then certainly the Armenians were allowed to carry their own, and bring their money and buy some. No? Well at least the Turkish soldiers protected them, right? NO, NO, NO! There is not a single shred of evidence you can show me that your government did not fully intend for all of them to die. Go and prove me wrong.
I can prove them all, but you need to prove yours too.
- You can't prove that one, single thing. But I'm here, waiting for you to prove me wrong.
Why do you skip the fact that Armenians had chance to kill hundreds of thousands of people in Erzurum, Van and other cities? Yes, Turks killed Armenians, but the reason is, despite all those years of living under the same flag, at that time, they were in war.
- Let me say two things to your first assertion. Armenians most decidedly did NOT kill hundreds of thousands of people ANYWHERE during WWI. And Armenians did not have a government and a plot to exterminate any race, the Ottoman Empire did, and did. THAT is what a genocide is, and that is a totally different beast as they say. You have to understand the difference in order to understand this entire issue.
Open your eyes, you cant claim that Cultural Revolution, Nazi Holocaust are the same things as this what happened to Armenians. Yes there were Armenians killed, but dont forget there were Turks killed as well. In a countrys war of independence, Turks killed English, French, Russian people too. Because there was a war.
- Yes, you can say they're the same. Nobody is accusing you of genocide of English, French or Russian, only of Armenians. There's a reason for that. Therein lies the difference between war, massacre, and genocide. These are different words with different meanings.
You cant claim from where you sit, doing a little research on the internet. You dont know what you are opposing.
- "Doing a little research on the internet"? You say that without knowing the first thing about me. I have read virtually everything I could get my hands on regarding this topic. If you live in Turkey, you don't even have access to a tenth of what I have read. If you would care to familiarize yourself with the Armenian Genocide section of this website, which I created myself, you'd know that the amount of reading I've done on this subject is not insignificant.
http://www.armenian-genocide-lie.com/ (its just the first source i found on the net, but you can find better sources in books)
- No, you can't, actually. It's all full of not only lies, but racist crap as well. Your government could have produced much better lies and misinformation than this, but it's all the same elementary school name-calling garbage.
- --Raffi 21:02, 12 November 2007 (PST)